Oh my...
Submitted by everplastic on Thu, 09/20/2007 - 14:56.
Themeing is a real nightmare... Not only there's a mess oh html, php an css all over the package... It's quite impossible to isolate of modify elements to style and, what's worst, is that you have to hack a myriad of core files!
I started creating a new theme for a custom implementation of PP, called Comet, but I soon changed my mind after finishing with the login page.
I asked myself: what will happen in just a couple of days? PP will reach a .8 stable revision and, after all, things won't change soon... So it's not a good idea hacking the system now (it's never a good idea). I'd like to see a theme layer which will give users the opportunity to override system functions, and do painless style customizations...
What do you think?
I agree with your observation when I updated the new default theme - it was a PITA. What helps (a little) is using the Firebug extension for FF and click your way through.
When 0.8 will be released it will have just some smaller improvements based on RC feedback. Currently we are preparing the release. So it will be no change in that version. The easiest way may be to pick up an existing theme and modify it.
Regarding 0.8+ versions there are no decisions taken about the new features or changes but I expect a 0.9 version with some functional improvements and some major changes in 1.0. What I like to see in 1.0 is a more simplified user interface and more possibilities for own customizations (themes, colors, logos ...). But this is just my opinion and no "official" statement. We will see.
Since we are a very small team of contributors there are many things to do besides coding and so we are working on processes, documentation and so on.
- Roland
To edit the themes, you shouldn't need to edit anything but CSS files and add your own image files. True, there are a bunch of CSS files and it's agreed that it's a PITA, but you shouldn't be hacking into PHP and HTML or any core files to edit a theme or create a new theme. If you do, your installation won't be upgradeable.
Editing is good, but one theme can't fit all needs, do you agree? And, there's much more than images and rules to themeing. A good front-end should sport a structural layer, a presentational layer and a behavioural layer. And, of course, it should validate and be cross-browser as well ;-)
BTW I didn't see a well built theme, yet.
As I said, I'd like to see a template file to override and customize functions. This way you don't need to touch the core, but still can do what you need.
I like very much the way Drupal is structured. What if ProjectPier would develop as a Drupal6 module?
This way developers don't need to reinvent the wheel and users can integrate with a great CMS/Blog system.
Roland?
I agree with you, but that's the way it is now.
If we can get this done differently and we have the right people to do this (this might be a major architectural change) *and* we can get an agreement on this, then we should to this IMHO.
Regarding Drupal: I really like the idea of the Zen or Gutenberg themes, because this makes it easier for everybody to theme or use existing themes. I am not sure how we can marry PP to Drupal (there is a nice discussion about the project module started by Ryan at drupal.org or groups.drupal.org) - today we are our own project and should plan our development by ourselves ... even if I am a big Drupal fan.
- Roland
I think the way the discussion has been going has lead us to the conclusion that for now we should focus on keeping the themes workable from a usability standpoint and focus on the vital improvements that we need to get up to speed with the rest of the groupware industry. There are lots of structural and behavioral changes that we should work out before diving into a templating system that the software wasn't really designed for.
Remember: We're working on code written mostly by one guy with specific goals in mind. We might have done it differently if we were the coders, but PP at this point is what it is.
If you're going to hack the core files, I recommend just keeping a log of changes you've made so you can redo your changes in the next release.
If you find good ways of managing it feel free to abstract them into a spec and show it to us. I think this is ideally the kind of feature that we could start working on for the 1.0 release (which could come after a simpler features release at 0.9)
Being a Graphic Designer I give alot of importance to the UI, And I know of some cases, like Gallery2 where you can activate a theme with ajax support for instance and you don't have to change any core files.
Ofcourse I want PP to evolve and keep up with other groupware software, but isn't it easier to implement the advanced theming support before adding more fetures?
I'm just wondering, I'm defently not a coder! :D
I would like to contribute with some theming also, but it need's to be simplefied :P
I'd be interested in helping out with restructuring the markup and making a new default theme that would make it as easy as possible to modify using css and graphics only.
This would mean making it a bit more semantic, and documenting what each class /ID is for, so themers don't have to hunt around to find this info.
I would also love to see a cleaner default theme, very very neutral (sorry to say, I'm not a fan of the header background graphic, I find it very distracting).
Soo.. is this something that would be needed/useful for the dev team? If so, where do I sign up?
Agreed about the default theme. We had a discussion before releasing 0.8 but decided to keep it for various reasons. By the time we have another release it will be a new default (we were thinking of having a contest!).
If you want to make the current markup more semantic and css-able then the main thing you'll want to do is find the parts of the php source code that create the markup and alter them as you see fit.
Right now the markup is mixed in with php code and so you'll have to go through the source and find the functions to edit. This is hard, I know that I would find it hard anyway, totally not the same as going through a simple template or XHTML file and changing things. If you can find the righ tfunctions though it shouldn't be TOO hard to smooth out any structural problems you see and add more styling classes on things that have none right now.
Once you've done that, you can create a patch file for any php files you've changed and submit it as a ticket. If it's uncontrovercial and good we'll add it to the source!
not sure how one goes about making a patch file, but i'll ask when i get that far :)
This is my progress so far (still work in progress):
Preview 1
Preview 2
So far have not messed around with the actual code much, except to structure the header user menus (account / projects/administration) to be semantic nested-list dropdowns and to work on hover rather than onclick.
what do you think? Does this look like something that would be useful to the ppier community?
I find that very clean kemie.
Just one thing, in the recent activities part, see this issue, it will be more universal for the translations to replace gif by div with plain text. After that, with a little CSS, we can also add gif icons at the left part of the plain text : it's just a cosmetic choice.
Anyway, will it be possible to test your "new" code on my local server please?
thanks
Seems a great idea to subsitute those gifs!
So if I understand from the code, the output instead of the gif would be:
[div class="logname"][span]name[/span][/div]
About testing: sure thing, but how would we go about it? zipping up the theme files would be no problem, should i also send the modified application files?
Another option would be for me to set up a test version of ppier on my server, so that anyone could test and provide feedback.
Your're right for the code.
I think you can open an issue and attach your zip files, but I'm not an admin...
I'd use it. Its wide and clean.
The problem I'm having (I'm currently USING aC 1.0, trying out PP) is that clients are confused and don't really know how to use the system. Sometimes the projects these clients are involved in are around for only a few weeks, and there is no time to educate them on the system... so the cleaner the design the better.
I've got two weeks to try out PP and still get my money back for aC. So far I really like what I see. The app could use some improvements, but the fact that there is a community started here is really encouraging. I'm excited to see where the project goes, and contribute if I can.
~ Bryan
Much, much, much better :)
The menus beneath the admin etc are FINALLY clear, as are the links. Quality job!!!!
I think that the theme looks /really good/. Do you have any idea when you'll be done?
The theme itself is about done. needs a few tweaks here and there for small things, but overall it's done.
Here's the latest screenshot.
I just wonder if I should make already the changes fpradignac talked about.
By the way, if anyone is interested in taking a closer look and provide me some feedback, send me a message and I'll hook you up with a test account.
Hi Kemie,
Excellent job with you theme! I'd love to use it if possible.
Please let me know if you've completed it, or if you've made it available
to the community yet.
Thanks in advance!
JB
One of the things I really disliked about activeCollab was that people were developing themes and making them available for download from the forums with no control whatsoever. I realize that hasn't happened with this thread, but I want to mention it before it does. When we started Projectpier, the first thing we did was to gather current versions of all the known themes and create a project for each on the Projectpier 'project' page. We placed them under revision control and defined who the project leader was.
I think this theme rocks! The screen shot is really sweet! It is totally understandable for development to progress with a single developer at this point since it is your creation alone. I would urge that when it is complete, we create a project for your theme on the ProjectPier website with you as the project leader. That is to say, I would discourage you from putting a link in the ProjectPier forums with a link to download the theme from a remote site - as was done frequently on the activeCollab forums. These links become lost, buried in a thousand forum topics and are very difficult to keep track of. Creating a project on ProjectPier.org allows us to keep one place people can always get the latest version, plus we track who is responsible for maintaining it, ProjectPier version compatibility, etc.
Once again, this looks like an excellent theme and I'm just trying to guide you here, not discourage you in any way.
Thanks,
Jon
Please contact me directly, or use the sitewide contact form when you're ready to release the project and I will setup the appropriate project for you. I am also investigating ways of providing commit privileges to maintainers of projects like this. I should also point out one of the benefits of this is that is provides an issue que for each project/theme to submit fixes and of course there is the hosting.
-Ryan Cross
Jon & Ryan:
I agree completely, this theme should not be just closed and mine, my intention was to make it available to the community in the best way possible.
I'm not really sure how to do this, though, since it is not just a theme. It requires modifying core files (not many, and not much, to have the dropdown menus i did have to change the markup). I don't know if this change is something the PPier community wants made to the core, since changing the core files will mean other themes will not work anymore.
In any case, the theme is 90% ready (just tweaking some css), so I'd appreciate your help in figuring out where to go next.
Kemie,
I will create a project for your theme on the website where we can post the files for download. I am also considering the best way to provide commit privileges so that you could maintain the theme without my intervention.
As for the tech details, I would suggest that the project hold just the theme files. Then, create an issue and attach a patch file with the necessary changes to the core code. Then we can evaluate those changes for inclusion in the core. The description and installation instructions should point people to that issue so they can apply the patch file.
I would also suggest that you subscribe to the developer mailing list. Contact me directly when you're ready to make a release.
-Ryan
Any time frame on when the theme will be up on the project page for download? I've been spending the week getting my hands dirty and relearning the code base. Just put the system into production for some of my projects and would love to put this new theme to work. Fantastic job! Thanks!
He hasn't contacted me regarding making a release yet, so when he does I'll be sure to put it up quickly.
-Ryan
Sorry, was out of town last week. I should be making the last tweaks tomorrow or wednesday, and then I'll contact you, Ryan. It should be this week.
ps- i'm a she ;)
Cool. I'm looking forward to seeing this template in action. The screenshots were excellent.
Thanks Kemie.
Can't wait to try this out :)
Good job Kemie. Would be awesome to have PP looking that good by default ;)
Hey Kemie,
Any update on the theme?
Also, is there anything anyone can do to help?
JB
Just for those following this thread, the theme has been released and now has it's own thread:
Marine Theme
it+s on my to-do list for tomorrow.:)
Sorry, pesky things like work get in the way of the IMPORTANT stuff :D
Hey Kemie,
Don't forget to contact me so I can set up a proper project for your theme.
Ok, I?m done, at least for version 1.0.
So what's next ryan? can you set up a project for me? and explain how I create a patch?
It seems like I never have enough time to work on the things I really find important and/or enjoyable.
THATS GREAT THAT YOU ARE DONE!
I'm really looking forward to this theme.
JB